The Functional Case for Headless Commerce

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The pandemic pushed a lot of online retailers towards headless commerce.

First of all, what IS headless commerce?

Well, it’s a term coined by Dirk Hoerig back in 2013 to describe e-commerce that allows for the customer-facing areas of a sales platform to be updated without messing around with the back end.

Some eCommerce companies see it as an easy scaling method, but is it right for your business?

Furqan Munir, Head of Product at fabric, tells us how headless commerce can revolutionize the online shopping experience and help companies orchestrate front-end efficiency.

Join us as we discuss:

  • How headless commerce is influencing brand storytelling (8:30)
  • Legacy systems and their place in headless commerce functionality (16:00)
  • Managing cross-industry eCommerce platforms (24:17)  

Craving more? You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to C-Suite Blueprint on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.

Why is it that to create a more human centric e commerce experience, all we had to do was chop the head off? Today we talked about headless commerce. Why is it so hot right now? What's going on with it? Are you ready for it? Why? Why would you move to it and what's that journey like? I'm joined by for CON Munier, who is the head of product at fabric. You can find fabric at Fabric Dot Inc, their headless commerce platform. We have no invested interest in them other than talking to interesting folks that are playing in this space. Kan has a great point of view from his years at group on and now at fabric, and he's really pushing the boundary on a really human centric roadmap for headless commerce. So please, welcome for con. You're listening to C suitet blueprint, the show for C suite leaders. Here we discussed no bys approaches to organizational readiness and digital transformation. Let's start the show for con. Thanks so much for being here. Yeah, thank cue for having me here. George, really excited to get this going. Yeah, yeah, today we're gonna talk head this commerce, which is not new. But we were talking earlier about how Forbes wrote an article about the tremendous amount of investment that's going into headless commerce right now, Um, and I'm curious if you have any hypotheses on why now? Why is there such a person to headless commerce right now? I think over the last two years, Um, I think with the pandemic hitting us, you know, recession now on its way, I think the business is to go digital has, you know, accelerated and that is one area where I think headless can really solve a lot of the problems with conventional retail businesses we're facing and especially with, you know, the cost of technology. Right. Like you know, headless provides a very, I would say, easy way into scaling and growing this business. So I think all the right catalysts are there now for businesses to take that next step and then headless provides that, I would say, protecture and that path to move forward with that...

...technology. There's a combination of many technologies maturing at the same time that organizations want to be more flexible than they've ever wanted to be. Right. You know, over the over the pandemic, I would imagine, trement and some of them have been our clients, where they wanted to be extremely flexible during the pandemic and then they realized that their monolithic systems were not set up for that. Right. They want to go in different directions, but they're just they're bound by it. You know, I'm curious what, what catalysts do you typically see when people are saying, Hey, we're now finally ready to move over to headless commerce? Just taking a step back or maybe like trying to answer that that question. But you were raising right why and what the businesses learned? Right. So, one thing with the monolithic systems, right, like, let's say you're an merchant operating with ten thousands of stores. You have beer housing. Now pandemic hit, everything is in the lockdown. What how can you service orders? Right, like, from Aud you store. You want to realize that inventory with one an ethic system by online pickup in store, cups and delivery became a major problem, right like, and retailers did not know how they can support this, right, and that's where headless commerce like really supports that. You can plug in a module very easily and say hey, by the way, for all my online orders, right, and here is my aggregated inventory across all my stores. Where is the customer location and based on that start fulfilling and you're selling even if your store is, let not operating capacity or you weren't allowing Walkins to come in. So that is one of the I would say, catalysts as as how business has learned to evolve. It's like everything is on sale right, like even though you're you're shut down. So that's where, you know businesses went back and say, Oh my God, right, like simple stuff cross border shipping as well, I have a lot of inventory across the border, like between Canada and us, is a classic example. Um, you know, you don't want to stop selling. Canada had, you know, literally their supplies were not coming in. But however, you could still ship stuff from the US, and that's where you know businesses like Amazon really took off right,...

...because they could do that with east. You could go into Amazon dot com and you can really put putting your address from Canada and then it will show you options, enabling that that cross part of option again, was one of the things which, you know, retailers could not do with their monolithic systems. It's probably also another example of where the pandemic just put a magnifying glass on an issue that was already there. Because I think what you saw, or what we definitely saw, is you'd see, Um, maybe it's a B Two b organization that they wanted to pivot to be to see and they need to do it fast. So they just spun up a second system, maybe a second monolithic system in parallel with their existency system, right, and maybe, and maybe a third or fourth. And now there's a whole bunch of batch batch ingestion and like batch integrations, where it's a lot of CSVS that are floating around there and spreadsheets and you know it's integrated, but it's not really integrated. And now that things are settling in, they're saying, Geez, what a mess we have on our hands right now. How can we we simplify this mess? And and that was not a pandemic issue. You know, anytime you saw, you know through mergers and acquisitions, you have multiple brands within one umbrella. Or you know you you made the decision to move from B two B, two B, two C, or B two C, two B, two B. This is a pattern that's been going on for decades Um, and now you know. I think now it's the sweet spot of everyone's probably both feeling the pain and then the headless technologies are maturing all all at the same time. I think what you just Um, you know, stated over there. I think that is why headless was like it was born, or it was like it came into a picture. Is that cost of Um, you know, technology. How do you have a single playbook which defines your technology strategy? Right there, just there's a lot of tech costs and especially, you know, merging acquisition. How do you can bring, you know, different parts of your business into one tex stack? Same with companies which operate across multiple, you know, geolocations. Right, you have a business in Europe, the setup is a primarily very...

...different. Um, you operate and and you US or North America, the operation and set up is very different. Right. How do you consolidate that into a single tech stack? Right, with Monolithic System? You're right. Right. They spun of multiple instances and they were working, but then, you know, the overall technology costs was so over, uh, so much. Right, like that, they needed to do something which was drastic and that's where headless commerce, or I would say sas and all of the cloud uh, you know solution, came into existence, right, because they provide that that you know, platform for companies to reduce and manage that cost in a much more better way. Yeah, and and it makes it easier to select your your solutions. Here's I love stories from the trenches. Right, we have one where we're evaluating e commerce platforms and and it's a global organization and they need to accept Bletos as a form of payment. And for those don't know, those people who don't know what that is, it's it's a ticket based cash system in Brazil, because a lot of Brazilians don't have bank account so they use cash, they go to the corner store, they get a ticket has a bar code. And so now you're you now all of these e commerce systems you're looking at, you're now whittling it down. You're like, well, we have to choose one that supports polettos and that might not be the best platform that's out there, right, whereas in a headless environment, you can choose really what is best for us and we don't have to go to like the lowest common denominator or perhaps over purchase, because maybe the only ones that support all those global things are like the super duper complex enterprise that you don't really need at this point. Right. Definitely. I think that, you know, again brings up another you know thing around payments as well. Like payments is a is a big problem for a lot of e commerce companies out there. Right like with all these evolution valets. Right like, people feel much more secure using their own Um, you know, they don't want to share the credit card details or debit card details with the service provider. Right like, they'll go and they'll store it in apple pay, Google pay, all paypal and which makes it very easy for the customer with one single checkout. And if you analyze, you know, the conversion...

...on these checkouts, right for single click, right like Amazon, you know, as a you know it's leading it, but any other retailer who has on the e commerce side has done that is seeing a massive, you know, I would say, increase in conversion on those particular customers, whereas, like w you you have a conventional input of credit card, like, people are still they'll go in and if there are the form is too big or too long on on the end of the checkout, they'll simply sure they won't complete the transaction. So I think, you know, having these technologies and these integrations available to customers and completing that digital experience. I think it's very, very important. Now it is. It is one of the other big catalysts we see for moving ahead. List is the merchandizing the storytelling. You know, there's so many brands and they tell stories in very different ways and even if you, if you're a multi brand company, each brand tells their stories in in a in a different way and Um, you know, being all being forced into the same container of well, you can have these products sets, you can have this imagery, maybe you can have a video. It's very limiting and I think that that's truly where brands can find the true value and demonstrate the value to their their consumers, when they can tell their story but tell it their way. You know, I'm curious to your experience from a product management perspective. I think that is, like, very important and again, that's where, like, you know, a lot of people don't maybe that better understand. Right, like headless in a prew form, it's actually, you know, decoupling the back end from front end, and what you just over there is like the presentation there, right like, Um, and with anolithic systems, right like it is very limiting because you're using a template, right, you cannot customize your storefront experience. And with certain personalized brand right, especially within Um, you know, furniture. We saw a lot of use cases right with furniture partners where you want to, you know, tailor that experience for their customers. They want to have collections and...

...pages set up which will give you a whole let's say living room right, like from all the way from a so far two curtains to carpet to a coffee table in the Middle Right, and even some example, they even through in a TV which will allow you to like complete the whole collection. That customer can do one single click to purchase that right. So that is how brands are seeing these things work. And with headless that becomes very easy because on the back end you, you know, you can compose different services to provide or build that experience on the front and you have an option of going limitless, all the boundless in terms of what design and what customer experience you want to give to your customers. M Hmm. That, yeah, that limits limitless aspect is an interesting one because, well, you know, you're at fabric, so you obviously love headless commerce, and I do as well. Just give them my history and the work that we do with their clients. But, Um, I also hate to see someone choose the platform that's wrong for them, that they're not ready for yet. And I do think they're there. Are you know, this isn't to say that Monolithic Systems are necessarily bad. There's a time and a place, right. So, like, if you if you need to do, if you want to be able to expand and have that flexibility and tell better story, but if you are limited on resources or if you're hyper focused on what it is that you're doing and you know that your road map is not going to change that much, it might make sense to get to to, you know, adopt the processes and the structure of a monolithic system. And I think the important part is is for people to realize, UM, when they're ready, you know, when they're ready to move outside of that world, or if they know that they're not gonna want to be locked into a monolithic system. Um. So it's not bad, it's just it's just different, I think. Right, I totally agree. And it's the size of Your Business, right, I think it's a very important factor. It's like, how what is your operating capacity right. Um, what is that? You know, how do you want to scale your business and and and that scale will dry. What changes you need to make right up to a certain say, you know, businesses operating with ten million, twenty million, even up to fifty million in envy...

Um, you know, are you know, very they can, you know, operate with with, I would say, monolithic systems, because they have small operational teams which do multiple tasks. Right. So having a closed system which allows you to do end to end right functions is very good. But as you grow bigger, right, and you want to have like dedicated customer service team, you need to have a dedicated logistical team, you need to have a dedicated operational team. Then that's where, you know, headless commerce really plays a very important part, because you can, you know, either implement or, you know, bring in a full end to end system, or you can take one service out of a system and, you know, and plug it in right to build the function you need to build. So that's where I would see, like you know, when businesses are evaluating, they need to see how big or what is their expansion plan and, based on that right they need to take that decision with some data. Yeah, yeah, and you need a certain maturity to your internal engineering teams and and and product teams as well. You know, I think when I was trying to think about why headless is getting so much investment now, one of the things I thought about also is I was part of the team that did toys rest dot com and we we built it fully customed and then we moved it to Amazon, which was at the time it was kind of headed like the one of the first headless platforms at that point. And then, you know, we built more mature systems with micro services and it I found in the early days of micro services it got messy. There were so many dependencies and you couldn't manage releases and there's just, you know, the tangled it was like the tangled web of of Christmas lights of them and left in the garage over a year. And I think now there's so much maturity to the Software Development Life Cycle. There's so much maturity in the development operations and release management that's out there that you can really orchestrate and stay away from from those those dependencies. You know, I'm curious, like how are you, you know from from your roadmap and what you guys released. Have you seen maturity over over time as far as you know, how people can manage those dependencies?...

Definitely, Um, I think one of the key things to understand is, like the way we have been building our technology is, like we're taking our focus on being modular, right, and what does it modular composibility is another one, right. So we break down the services into individual as a components, right, and then on top of it, right, like we'll put them together to complete our product. Right. So for Oms, right, for instance, it's a combination of, you know, inventory management system, right, it's a combination of order orchestration, and then you have your fulfillment logic which sits on top of it, right, and it allows you to manage different rules, right where the order gets fulfilled as opposed to where the inventory is or where the customer is. So all of that right, coming together as as an experience, right like that. You know, modularity allows you to do that. Retailer who just wanted inventory aggregation can just use inventory as as as a service, right, does not have to use order orchestration. So Release Management, Um, you know, across when you have individual services, becomes a lot more easier because then you're managing and you can build on features. But where it gets a little bit tricky that you have to, you know, make sure that there is enough um you know, mapping in the way you set your rules or how do you orchestrate the services. So having that orchestration service or or that, you know, ability to to manage those services in the way or transformation is really, really important. So if you have proper tooling to do that, you can, but if you're not, then you you you might end up into a problem where, you know, if you update one service and it's not talking properly to another one, like, you could have the same problems as a monolithic system. Yeah, that data orchestration is so key. I can tell you, after almost twenty five years of doing this, I can maybe count on one hand the number of legacy systems I've seen fully go away. Like it always lingers in the corner somewhere right like like in one of my earlier podcasts of time good when we talked about how technology just really accumulates. It's it's advancing, but you're just a umulating more and more and more of it. And so I...

...don't care what organization you are, you'RE gonna end up with like these old legacy systems that are sitting managing some function of the business, some back office functions, some something, and so you need some level of data orchestration and service orchestration to be able to, you know, loop that into your whole, you know, headless commerce platform. Um, I'm curious, you know, how much of a need are you seeing that from your customer base and what are the road maps on that type of stuff? I would say be seeing this a lot more now because, you know, the element, I would call it differently, is configurability, low code right, like and and to the point we were talking earlier. How do you minimize costs? Right, so, if you have a platform which allows you to configure Um and change the way you want to orchestrate your services, is really you know, it's it's I would say it's it's the real values there, right, because you could have a developer come in and they can like look at like, okay, where is my item data? Where is my inventory data? Where is my uh, you know, or pricing and promotion data, combine them together to create an orchestration for, let's, a cart and check out. Right, it's it's really limitless, like what they can do with it right, and that's where, you know, we have been really focusing on and saying, right, okay, how do we make this very configurable as opposed to, you know, having it, you know, being coded, because that then requires changes and then you have to do dependency mapping and a lot of that work and it's a very long cycle um to deploy something, whereas configurability allows you to, you know, go in there and change something and that, you know, if you have the right up, like, let's a presentation lere as well, it's very easy to propagate those changes into your front time and and have the the you know, the end consumer utilize them. So, if I put myself in the mind of a head of ECOM at an organization that's expanding globally or changing direction, and I've decided that I'm now ready to move to headless e commerce, how can I best prepare for that, like what makes a good customer of yours, like they can best...

...prepare and best kind of map out a playbook? I think I would start with the problem statement. A lot of the times, right, like when businesses going to these investment decisions or they want to change platform. They don't really understand why they want to do re platforming. Right, they just want to buy new technology, like it's just new technologies fun. But right, you need to have a very clear, you know, problem statement, right, like, is it? Do I need to merge? Right, as I was saying earlier. Right, I have stores. Right, I want to have that inventory available to my online customer. Is that a problem statement? Yeah, you started that. Do I want to offer more better shipping methods and options? Right. So all of these are our problem statement which need to come right, and then they need to be clearly tied to Kepi S. right. What do I intend to do after that? Is it my I'm growing my top line. Um, is it? I'm reducing costs to make sure that my gross profitability is operating at a at a level where I needed to be. So all of these KP I need to be hide with, like conversion data, customer Um, you know, traffic, all of that. Right. It needs to be, you know, put into a plan and that's when you can really, you know, advise a customer. And that's what I would say an ideal customer profile would be. And sometimes we even go in right when our customers come, you know, come and they say we have a problem, right, and we'll say, okay, this is how we we would like to, you know, advise you and and then again, you know, defining that problem statement and putting it into into a project plan, right, which basically ties it to each KPI and say, by the way, if you make this enhancement, right, your inventory, you know, offering on your website will be real time. If you make a price modification, it will be real time, right, and that's a change, right. And what does that drive? That does that drive? Right, like, let's say a customer for an ideal retailer. They were coming in and they were saying a lot of, you know, customers coming in and not converting because the product was out of stock. And you put inventory, but it takes twenty four hours for that to show up on the on the website. Right now it's real time. Right. How much production have you seen in traffic dropping off from your website? So...

...it's like that your top of the funnel conversion ratios. Starting with what the actual problem statement is so critical. I'd see too many people just buy. It's human nature. You just want to buy new stuff, right. So I'd like to get into your head a little bit as a as a that product manager mindset. Something I'm curious about because that a group on you you had. You know, it's it's more of the whole experience that you can own here. Um, in a headless environment, people can kind of do whatever they want with your baby, uh, you know, with the modules that you provide them. And as I was thinking about this, one thing that always bumped me about, bumps me out about more closed ecosystem products is when you're evaluating it, you're I always tell my my clients, hey, we're evaluating not just off of the functionality, but we're evaluating based off of the team and the roadmap. Where are they going right? And I think that applies to you guys as well. But you know, more of a closed ecosystem, you know, if you really need a feature, the product manager might get a pressure from enough customers they'll put it in and maybe sometimes it will be like barren and Moum, just to kind of check the box so that when they're being evaluated they could say, Hey, we support x, Y and Z functionality. But in evaluating a headless commerce or it's more module like this and if I'm evaluating it. If you guys don't check certain check boxes of functionality, I don't know that I care that much because I can just plug in point solutions into that ecosystem. and I wonder how that changes your mindset as a product manager. You Do? You do you just cause you to like wait longer before you add a feature and really make it perfect, like let me inside your brain a little bit on on how that works. I think that's a great question. Right, like that, and that shift, right, is what I would call it is like working for a technology company which is just supporting one business as opposed to assass Um you know, offering. So in a SAS company, right, like product managers really need to make sure that their features, or what they're building is genetic enough that it can support multiple use cases. They have to go across industries understand right, like, let's say, in manufacturing, to like detail,...

...to food, Um, you know, industry, like how does order management? How does you know orchestration of card? Right, what are the different feature sets? How does promotions apply? Right? What are the different engagement Um, you know, tools which you need to build on. So it's a product manager, you have to think, you know vertically and horizontally. You have to really go and see, you know, how your technology will be used and then determine its second thing is right. It's very important when you release something right, it is thoroughly tested right. You need to ensure that it works, it's it's it's backward compatible with all your other services right, like because you have multiple customers on your on your tech stact right. If you at least something and which does not work right, it can break things for your current customers and that could the blast radius is huge, whereas working for an individual company and owning our technology or for that it's much more easier, because something happens, you go, you work the chain over here. You know it's it's expectation management across multiple or I would say thousands or hundreds of customers. So it's very important. So there's a lot of, I would say, in depth research which goes into when you're defining or designing a feature right, you have to look at like what would it do, what would how would it increase benefits for your and Um, you know, merchants and retailers using that technology? So you know, sometimes we even go and look at like how can we tie to a KPI, right, like we increase or we developed something on promotions. How are merchants using it? Right, like are they seeing more engagement now because now merchants can offer better deals to their customers? Right, is this really changing things for them? So that becomes very important. That's a very important feedback which needs to come back Um to us and we try to, you know, go in front of the customer as much as we can to learn from them. Yet the cross industry aspects got to be so difficult. I can't tell you how many e commerce platforms that we've come across and you look at a certain feature, so maybe I'm working with a fast moving consumer goods company and we're using the platform and you look at some of the an area functionality and you're like,...

Oh, I bet this function now was built only thinking about retail or sports apparel or something like. You can, you can just kind of like sniff it out in there that this was not thought of Cross cross industry. How do you, how do you even manage thinking about that many industries in these cases? So I think it's around, I would use the word again, configuration. Right. We based a lot of that stuff, right so, for instance, in pricing, right, you have promotions, you have, Um, you know, ability to create coupons. You. How do you apply them across your assortment? Right, like do you want to limit to one brand, to one category? Everything is a is a configurability, right. Like, so it doesn't go out to everything. Right. Do you want to segment it across a set of customers or a region? Right? That is where the level we will go down to, basically making everything configurable so it's easier. So if merchants don't want to use it, they can switch it off. If they want to use it, they can use it against what is their target or and right, or their target assortment. Same with when you're setting up your catalog as well, right, like Um, you know askew Um in in retail, for instance, it's very different to a skew in, let's furniture industry. Like people have length, weight dimensions, also material. So how can you add attributes to your catalog? Data that is configurable. Right. So you can add the different number of attributes to capture that data. Right, in the same way in retail or fashion industry, right, like you have to have sizing charts, you have to have uh, you know, color and variation of the of the same item, right. So you know that is the game. configurability, you know, which allows you to basically build a catalog on that association between different types of products, right, like I buy this product or I want to sell this. This product is associated or bundled with this product. So creating that that again, Um, you know, it's configuration. So we think through what are the different use cases, how retailer can will be using our system. Of course, Um, we cannot cover everything, but we try to do as much research and then, Um, I think the other part of...

...it is extendability, Um, and scalability, right, which is very important. Right. How do they build on top of those those headless API s? Right, what is the scalability? So we have to know our boundaries and limits that like, like, you know, have you done enough testing? What is the the latency within our API or how much data it can render to the front end, Um, at at what speak? So those are the things we really consider, right, like when when we're developing, I'm curious do you do you think much about some of the you like, how do you think about some of the data standards that are out there? So, a long time ago I worked with the company that was working on G D S N, which is the the global data network for synchronizing retail data, and it was a very extensible XML model and but it ran into some issues because it's I mean, anything that's managed by a standards body kind of always runs into issues, and then people interpret the standards differently and then you end up with a bunch of like different, you know, a tower of babble situation where people are just talking, talking different languages. Um, do you do you think much about various data standards that are out there? How do you embrace them? Do you kind of create your own? So I think that's again very good point, right, like why, you know, headless covers, because, if you think the need from again going back to re platforming, one of the biggest challenges is like how do we manage data? How do we syndicate data? How do we, you know, import data for multiple sources? Right, with headless comments, that becomes very easy because there is a transformation there, right, which you can add right to transform data and you can clean it up. Having a good catalog allows you and with all the right, let's say, attributes, variation captured, color combinations, kew I D S captured. Right, you can really like, you know, syndicate your data to all sorts of different platforms to really Um, you know, maximize you fulfillment or maximize you offering. And that in conventional companies cannot happen. Right, even as simple as companies trying to go on Google P L A, right, they need to have like three...

...things that at a minimum, otherwise Google will not show their data or show their offering. You need to have a brand name, you need to have a skew identification number so they can manage you across other retailers, right, like so they can see where you're coming in, and you need to have price and offering validated. So these are the things, right, which are very important to have. And you know, as retailers are growing their business, they're finding more and more and and that's why, you know, they would go to a platform where data can be managed in a watch more systematic way. Um, it can be, you know, configured across multiple different systems. Right. You have a system which is purely for catalog management. Right, you can manage where is your catalog coming from? Who is the vendor or the manufacturer providing that to all the way to a merchandising team owning a price pricing system where they can, you know, schedule pricing or manage promotions, to logistical team managing inventory because they are holding they understand where the stock is. What is the positioning of your stock? Yeah, having your merchandise and team have to worry about how exactly things work downstream, you know, and all the various, you know, data syndications that are going on. That makes a lot of sense. So what are you excited about most in this space looking forward? I think it's what really excited me is, like I see every day there's something new which is happening. Like you know, I'm excited to build stuff which really solves the problem for for the merchants, right, like how do they go across different geolocation? How do they extend their business? Right? And that's what like when you go in in a room and a merchant is explaining their problem and they're like, Oh, I've got a solution for you, I can make your life really easy. Example I give you recently went live with a merchant where they had a use case of multi sites and they wanted their customers to start a journey from one side and they add something to the cart and they would go to their secondary site and add something to the same card and should be able to check out on either of the sides. So that was a you know, for us, like it was a very easy use case to solve. For for them, they've been struck, think, with it for for years, right,...

...right, trying to do that in house. So, you know, that's what really keeps me going and exciting because building technology which you know can some way all the other help, you know, ease out the pain retailers are seen. It's so funny with by not having a presentation to here, you're able to provide better user experiences and get and get closer to the humans at the end of it. Right. That makes a lot of sense. Is just funny. Um. So, uh, I always like to finish with something a fun question. Throughout your your years of experience, what's the best advice you've ever received? I think one thing which I would like to share is active listening. As as being a technology company, as a product manager, you really need to listen right and understand what the problem is. Right, and I keep repeating myself, you know, but I think that is the best advice. I thought was that listen Um and then, Um, you know, speak and you know absorb right like and then you know, channel it, like break it down into sizeable chunks. So I would almost say in order to be successful, I think active listening is very, very important. So easy it's so hard. Very good advice for con thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it. No, thank you for having me, George. It was a really, really fun conversation. Thank you. Kay. You've been listening to see sweet blueprint. If you like what you've heard, be sure to hit subscribe wherever you get your podcast to make sure you never miss a new episode. And while you're there, we'd love it if you could leave a raby. Just give us, however, when you starts you think we deserve. Until next time.

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